How do I get my 3-year old to listen (and obey) me?

Kari · July 2012

Okay, I know there are going to be two types of responses to this post: 1) the how on earth does your child not listen to you ones, and 2) the been there done that responses. If you've BTDT, I could use some tips.

For the past two days Justin didn't take an afternoon nap. It was not quite his fault, as we went places both mornings, and then had issues getting home. Yesterday we had a flat tire and by the time I got the spare put on and went to the auto shop to have a plug put in the tire, it was 2:30. Today I also missed the window because we went to a parade, stopped for lunch, and he didn't fall asleep in the car but hit his second wind just as we arrived home.

So, fast-forward a few hours and I have a terror on my hands who has been shoving his sister around in her walker, throwing things, hitting, turning off the tv when I'm trying to watch a show, ripping toys out of Juliet's hands, and refusing to go to bed. I've tried being patient, tried time-outs (had to return him to the time-out spot 8 times), tried spanking, tried rationalizing, sent him to bed (he's gotten out 30+ times now), ignored him, corrected him, took toys away, etc. for the past few hours. He's gotten upset to the point he threw up his entire dinner, and yet immediately returned to the same behavior as soon as the episode was over. He's tried to be manipulative of the situations all evening. I'm ready to tear my hair out. The biggest issue is that he won't listen or obey. Granted, it's been tougher than normal the past few days because of no napping, but seriously, this has been an issue for a while now. While visiting a friend yesterday morning for a few hours and seeing her 3-year old's polite behavior in contrast to Justin's, I had to wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

The biggest thing I'd like him to obey me on is sleep because he's much better behaved when well-rested. I would really, really like to get him to go to bed when I tell him to. He has always had to be the last person asleep. Tonight he was ready for bed at 5:30, but wouldn't go because Juliet and I weren't asleep. Juliet had three naps today. She won't be ready for bed until 8. Justin won't stay in bed or the bedroom, even though I've returned him there countless times using the approaches I've seen on Supernanny. No luck. I'm ready to put a lock on the door and just lock him in there when it's nighttime, but I don't feel that's safe (in case of a fire or emergency).

Advice?

Klt86 · July 2012

I haven't been there (yet) but I think consistency is key! Pick one way of dealing with his behavior and stick to it. Don't threaten him, just give him one chance then follow through with whatever consequence you have chosen. Having seen a lot of parenting styles over the years I've seen that the best behaved kids were the ones who had routine and consistency (or just easy going personalities). Good luck! I have a feeling I'm going to have a strong willed little one on my hands in the near future as well.

old mama · July 2012

I think you just have an over tired little boy. You might have a rough night tonight but if it were me if possible have a laid back Sunday and let the whole house calm down. Three year olds are just tough and he---like my kids--knows how to push your buttons. I would just make sure the baby was safe and try to ignore him for a while. You can work on other issues on days when he is calmer. I am one of those moms who somedays just need to get through the day...after 15 kids there were many days like yours. You are a great mom and he is a great kid just having a tough day...Hang in there MOM!

friendamy · July 2012

overtired is the worst

and I agree, that's what it sounds like. I've been there (um, today!). what I find that sometimes works is going into his room with him, hugging him and asking why he's angry/sad. I let him talk it out... I just listen and hug him. I KNOW why he's angry/tired, but giving him thr control to tell me sometimes helps. it's not 100%, but that works most of the time - having quiet time together.

yep. it'll be a tough night, I'm guessing.

if possible, bump bedtime up an hour. tonight we'll do jammies at 6:45, program at 7:00, reading books till 7:45 and lights out at 8:00. that's an hour early for everything.

in the meantime, I try to keep things calm and not stimulating. which may be difficult with a baby

hang in there hun!

that's what I do for overtired kiddo... how does he do when he's well rested?

Kari · July 2012

When he's well-rested, he isn't a terror, but he sure isn't perfect, either! He's always challenging at bedtime about our bedtime situation. He HAS to be the last person asleep and the first one awake - often sleeping only 8.5-9.5 hours while I'm up 2-4 times a night with Juliet nursing and at least once to help him find Clifford/paci/change diaper/get water. I'm exhausted, and he wants to keep everyone awake when he's awake.

As for the rest of the day, he definitely is defiant and stubborn. You can correct him a dozen times in a row, and if he still wants to do something, he's going to do it. It does get remarkably worse when he's ready for a nap or bedtime. My pediatrician said I have to discover his "currency" to be able to get him to respond to requests. He doesn't respond at all to negative feedback (yelling, time-outs, taking away toys) or to positive feedback. Sticker charts, M&M's, special outings, one-on-one time with me also aren't strong enough incentives to work toward.

I'm not new to this game; I've been teaching for 15 years and was a camp counselor for another 12 summers and could count on both hands the number of kids who have talked back to me or refused to do something I asked. But I can't figure out my own child!

Shanny · July 2012

Oh boy - if I had an actual answer for you - I'd be rich! And just so you know - most people who have ever met Kate would put her in the "polite behavior" category. And she is much of the time. But when she's tired, I'm tired and or busy and we are on a button pushing marathon...well let's just say that very few people get to witness that besides me! My only advice would be this - if you know he hasn't napped and that this is the few hours you are likely facing stop everything else you are doing or care to do. If you can do that he won't have the opporunities for 1/2 of the naughty behavior. If you just sit on the floor and play with him building blocks, reading books etc he doesn't have the chance to go after Juliet, turn off the tv etc. If you don't have to cook dinner - don't. Make it a pbj or cereal night so it is a)something that isn't a fight and you know he'll gladly eat and b)you don't have to take your attention off of them to cook something. So essentially - if you have to get through 3 hours from 2:30-5:30 just don't try and do anything else but play with them. Of course you'll still need to feed and or change the baby and none of it means he won't still throw a block at your head because he is 3 after all! And a tired 3 to boot! It is worth the house going to hell in a hand basket for you to have him not lose his mind every 5 minutes and hopefully go down easier. As far as the sleep goes - you've got to find HIS button. I made Kate start going to bed alone almost a year ago, so just a few months before she turned 3 (no way to sugar coat it that's what I did!). It was 3 nights of drama city with hysteria, crying and screaming (both of us) but she has never once gotten out of bed since then and rarely even calls for me from the room. Her button? Closing the door. I followed through once during the 3 nights of hell and if there is any signs of her not cooperating at bedtime that's what we do. A went through something similar at this age even though she has always slept in her own crib/bed. Her button? Her blanket. Mom and Dad finally followed through one night and she stopped getting out of her bed. Find his button and if you can have someone come watch the baby for a few nights so you can really do the dirty work I think you'll get some results. May not be perfect every night but hopefully better. Good luck. I am hearing now (and seeing it with A) that 4 and 5 are your reward for maing it to that point. And believe me if we make it to 4 I will be very proud of both of us!

sara291 · July 2012

He sounds just like Z at 3!!!! Oh my it was horrible!!! Everyone said he was so sweet, polite & well behaved. So not true!! He would wake up and actually told me he was going to be a hoodlum that day. I don't any advice but 4 is a bit better. Still FAR from a angel but a different attitude at least. I often wonder where we are going wrong but it seems normal. As far as bedtime we never really had that battle. Naps yes but we just gave up on those (though he needed them!! Bedtime was ok but he had to sleep on his "nice soft floor" & not his nice soft bed. We put music & one of those turtles that puts music on. Bedtime is the worse though when it does not go well!!! I'm just ready for the day to be over!! 20 minutes later I miss them but whatever.
A few times we have had issues where Z would not go to sleep, jumping & playing if R was still awake. It still sucks if it happens. They can keep each other up a good hour & just go crazy!! I get sick of it & make Z come & just sit facing a wall. He hates it. I'll put I. The TV where he can't see (not nice I know) then if I ask him if he is ready for bed he usually says yes. This started around 3 or maybe a few months after 3. It is pointless trying to fight him in there since then neither sleep. So I make staying up not fun at all!!! I have even made him stand before. He gets tired of standing & hates that as well. So it's either stay or go to bed. Going to bed is always his answer.

At 2 & some past 3 I put a baby proof door on the inside

friendamy · July 2012

I wish I could offer more help! the 3's were the hardest year so far! and I agree - find his currency. which is easy to say! I've had good luck with a marble jar (I got all the supplies at the dollar store) I got a short vase and marked it with a sharpie for his goal. when I'd catch him being good, listening, helping, making good choices, etc, he'd get a marble in his jar (i think it took 30 marbles to fill?) - when he met his goal he got something. the first was a day at disney. then out for shave ice. then a new book... basically, something he wanted. it'd take a week (at least) to fill it.

and once the marble is in, it stays in. I never removed marbles.

I had trouble at bedtime too - so at bedtime he'd start with 3 marbles in my hand. each time he called me in (our issue) he lost a marble from my hand. some nights he'd earn 3 marbles... sometimes none.

now that he's older... he's kinda grown out of the marble jar, but he remembers it!

fisch · July 2012

3 has been my least favorite age so far! You have gotten a lot of good advice already, shanny gave good ideas I think. At 3 we were also transitioning to no naps....it was about a 9 month period of sometimes napping, sometimes not....I think some kids need the rhythm of consistency more than others, even though their body is naturally transitioning. Jack is like that. It can be difficult to change patterns. It has gotten easier though. For example a few weeks ago he did a redeye flight to the east coast with no problems, except a little jet lag...but no breakdowns. This would not have been possible the year before. Also we did the same redeye with him when he was 15 months and it was hell. I do soooo love 4 years old.

annerbones · July 2012

In Portland we have a Family Services organization that I worked with when I taught Head Start - I contacted them on Friday for similar advice. This is the response I got via email, I have talked to this woman in person and over the phone because worked closely together to support some of my students.

Where is says hit - just substitute whatever Justin is doing

I have some links for you. (If you google “toddler hitting” you get like, a million hits, no pun intended). Some of the Babycenter threads have a million replies, and it might make you feel less alone! You will also read some of the responses and think, “Wow, I am really ahead of the game!”

This was the best one, I thought:

http://www.parenting.com/article/ask-dr-sears-toddler-hitting

What I liked about it was the idea of “Track the Trigger” where you try to figure out a pattern in what is causing it. Sounds like you mostly have it figured out, but the nerd in me likes to gather more data. ;-)

The other thing I liked was that it talked about giving more “Touch Time.” She may be trying to get physical contact. If she is a kid who likes more intense sensations (lots of sensory input) that may be related to the hitting. I know my mother will start pinching me if she wants a hug. ;-)

Some of the articles I found talked about time-out, but I really have to come out against that for a 2-year-old.

I think the other things we talked about were also on the right track.

1) Catch her/coach her waiting and describe it to her.

2) Catch her/coach her asking for what she wants or using words to get what she wants.

2) Help her name the feeling she’s having. “I see that you are frustrated. You can say, “I’m frustrated!” but you can’t hit mommy.”

When I say “coach” I mean cue her to do if you notice a potential trigger. For example, “oooh, I see you are making a mad face. You don’t like waiting, but you are doing it! What a strong girl you are!”

allthingslucky · July 2012

I recently took a parenting class that I enjoyed and learned a ton from. According to this class, children need to belong and sometimes they misbehave in order to belong. Children misbehave for 4 reasons: attention, power, revenge, or a display of inadequacy.

Attention: A child who misbehaves for attention will do something that is annoying to the parent. When the parent steps in to correct the child, the child has gotten the attention.

Power: Some children believe they belong only by being "the boss." These children seek the goal of power. A child who seeks power is telling the parent, "Iam in control" "You can't make me" Or they may refuse to budge silently, or slowly doing tasks asked by the parent.

Revenge: Usually children who don't win the power struggle with the parents seek revenge. Its a "you hurt my feelings so now I'm going to hurt you." It could be verbally by saying things like "I hate you, youre the worst mommy." Or physically hitting, kicking, biting, etc.

Display of inadequacy: Its when children just give up. "I cant do x,y,z.." and you stepping in every time and doing it for them.

Depending on the goal of misbehavior depends on how to handle it.

If it is an attention seeking behavior ingore the negitave behavior. But then when you catch him doing something good, make sure you acknowledge it. Also when hes being good engage him to play a game or something for no reason.

If its power or revenge, again ingore the behavior. Even if that means walking away into another room.

Display of inadequacy, encourage and believe in your child to do it.

So with Justin, (i don't know him, but from what I've read) It's probably, attention, power then revenge. First I would start by thinking of your house rules and decide what disipline you want to enforce. After that I would sit him down and explain your expectations. After that be consistant, it will get worse before better. If time out is what you choose, you may have to pick him and put him back 100 times before he sits quietly, but do it. Eventually he will realize you're not kidding and it should get eaiser.

Give him attention and praise when he is being good or nice or kind. Point out as much good in him as possible.

For bedtime, just stick to your guns. It will suck for a few nights, maybe even a week or two, but once he realizes he is not winning the power struggle he will stop. I knew a couple that turned their door knob around so the lock was on the outside and they locked their kids in the room because they would not stay in the room.

Another thing is to give choices so the child feels like they are in control. Saying something like "It's bedtime in 15 minutes, would you like mommy to read you a story or would you like to play quietly with your blocks?" "Its lunch time, would you like apples or a banana with your sandwhich."

If you want the class I took was called STEP (systematic traning for effctive parenting). I found it useful and I learned so much. I hope some of this helps.

cocolibby · July 2012

You're getting a lot of interesting a good advice. We struggled for many months with our then 3 and 6 year olds with the sleeping situation (because we allowed the family bed to go on for far too long and no one was getting enough sleep). Shanny's advice about figuring out what will actually get to him is spot on - with Asa it was the threat (only had to follow through a couple of times) of sleeping in a room alone instead of with a brother, with Evan it was more reward-based motivation for things he wanted to have or do.

We use the "worse choice" parenting technique a LOT, and with all ages of our kids. As in, you can do this chore we're asking you to do or go sit on your bed for ten minutes. You can finish your homework now and have 30 minutes of tv, or you can finish it later and have none. That type of thing. Asa is the only kid who EVER chooses the worse choice! He will literally voluntarily sit in time out or go to bed early rather than read a book (he has to read 4 a week for school). And, boy, when he was smaller it was like an episode of Supernanny to get him to stay in a time out or apologize for hitting someone or whatever.

We make an effort to ensure that our children could (if they chose) predict everything that we will say and do before it happens. It takes consistency to a level that is mind-numbingly boring and monotonous - I get sick of hearing myself. But I feel like it's as close as you can get to fair, and it prevents feeling guilty. With every choice they make, they are choosing the reaction they will get from us, be it positive or negative.

roses25 · July 2012

I don't have any suggestions, but I would agree that 3's are tougher than the 2's. Aiden has his days/times too. I just wanted to say that I read in one of my gentle discipline books that 3 yr. olds are only able to follow instructions half the time. When you think about all the instructions you give a 3 year old that's a lot of instructions that aren't followed. I'm enjoying reading all the suggestions.

Shaeley Mae · July 2012

Ugghhh ...... I'm so sorry. I can totally envision your frustration. And the truth is, I read your post before bed last night but didn't have a single piece of advice.
Reading through the reponses today, I think you have received great advice. And I know that when you first brought Juliet home you received alot of advice about not moving Justin to his own room (simply because of the psychology factor of being "replaced" by the baby). Now that she's been around awhile though, and his sleep routine seems to be persisting (if not getting worse), you may want to really consider moving him to his own bedroom. Obviously, it would have to be a really positive experience that starts with talking it up, shopping together for new sheets and sleep buddies, a special bedtime story, etc.

Hugs to you my friend. I truly hope you find a solution quickly. That kind of turmoil is sooooo draining.

babybaby · July 2012

oh boy! i'm so sorry. i wish i had advice for you. i do think maybe being consistent with the consequences, as klt86 said, might work. that and maybe not giving the appearance of being flustered by him (thus giving him the idea that he is in control and you are out of control). i have not been there, done that, though, so i admit i am in absolutely no position to be giving you advice.

Zen · July 2012

I don't have a miracle fix. But I have observed other kids Shiloh's age bouncing off the walls while mine is calm and well behaved. And I think the difference is not one of good/bad so much as expectations and reinforcements. By the time a child is cranky or in tantrum mode, it's too late. You have to deal with the behavior of the moment and have no chance at orchestrating the behavior you want. I got lucky with Shiloh because her basic nature is calm and happy. But the little things we do on a day to day basis help reinforce that. Holding hands when walking outside is not optional. There is no consequence, and there is no discussion. Same with niceties like please, thank you, and you're welcome. And then things grow from there.

So like with Juliet, you can teach him that he can give to her, but not take. Anytime he takes anything from her, you take it away. But ... not necessarily give it back to her. Because the idea is not that she has something and Justin doesn't. Just that Justin cannot take it without permission. So he never gets any reward for aggressive taking.

With Justin and bedtime, you have to plan the progression to bed and sleep. His being cranky and tired and in need of sleep is not enough. Bedtime is something that I'm probably not doing right, but it works for me. I put Shiloh to bed when it's time for her to go to sleep. But she has to be ready to go to sleep. For her that's usually 10:30 at night. I can put her down at 9:30 ... but she'll resist and cry. For about an hour. Until falling asleep with both of us exhausted and miserable. At 10:30. If I put her down at 10:30, she's out cold in 5 minutes. We do have a bedtime routine. Pajamas, snack, story, brush teeth, water, song, bedtime. So at some point when I'm ready, I can move our routine a little earlier (5-10 minutes) each night in slow increments and know that in 2 weeks I can have her in bed by 9pm. But I'm not going to now. Because at this point in our lives there are just too many days where we are going to be out later. In 2 years when she is ready to go to school however ... then I'll commit to another routine!

Just start with small things and stick with it. When it's second nature for Justin to do as you say on small, seemingly inconsequential things (handing you something, picking up a toy, saying thank you), it will follow that he'll do the same on the big things too!

Storkhunting · July 2012

This is probably going to be an unpopular suggestion, but I would suggest that you start off by putting him in his own bedroom. It will be hard and you will want to give up but believe me it will make a world of difference when it comes to sleeping. He sounds like he is the type of child that wants to be in control. So give him his own space. He might not think he wants it, but that just might be the issue. He will have his own room, own bed, and a place for his toys/books ect. A place that is just for him when he needs to calm down. I know we all want to keep our babies with us in our rooms forever, but sometimes that is not in our or there best interest. A side note, my sister created a baby gate out of the head board of her son's crib. It is taller than a baby gate so he wouldn't be able to get out, but the door would still be open so that you can see in and check on him when he is on time out or sleeping without fear for his safety. All you do is cut the legs to the height that you need and buy the hardware latches from a home-improvement store. Good luck, and don't beat yourself up about this. Your a great mom.

Shanny · July 2012

This afternoon I started (re) reading How to Talk so Kids will listen (and listen so kids will talk). Actually I never finished it the first time around. And I didn't get very far today either. And the first several pages I read didn't really apply to what I was seeking help with (or so I thought). But ya know what? I found myself TRYING harder after just picking up a parenting book (in addition to reading and think about this thread this weekend). I took an extra second to stop and pause before reacting to something she was doing. That extra second usually changed my response! Dispite no nap it actually turned out to be a pretty pleasant evening. I'm not saying I just figured anything miraculous out...just that I think I'll read a few pages here and there when I have time (of any parenting book really) JUST to remind myself that there are 2 people in this relationship and it isn't always going to go my way. One silly little example was dinner. She said she wasn't going to eat her steak (she loves steak). I said OK. She said it again. I said OK. She paused and said "I am going to eat it". I said OK and she did. Have I really become the Mom who cajoles and fights about food because I swore I never would and I hadn't really noticed that this had happened but apparently it has because she was so obviously trying to get a reaction out of me! When I didn't react and instead even gave her positive attention talking about something totally unrelated she stopped. She wouldn't have done this if it hadn't been working for her in the past and we've clearly established some very bad patterns here. I don't know if anything I've said helped but I think you've really helped me take a look at what I'm doing and what isn't working - so thanks! Hope that makes you feel a little better

theflaherty5 · July 2012

So I did not read all the responses, but my favorite books for raising kids are the Love and Logic books from Fay and Cline. They have a Love and Logic for toddlers. I swear by them toddlers through teens! GL

lesrmh · July 2012

OMG.....do we have the same donor??? (I am blaming J's behavior on the question I skimmed over on the long profile...(How would people describe you as a child? RAMBUNCTIOUS)..lol, J sounds JUST like Justin)
Girl....I hear ha, I am a teacher too for 11 years and have NEVER had a child not do as I ask...everyone sends their problem kids to me because I am the only one that can get them to obey...but my kid...can't figure him out!!!!
We should talk!!!
All I know is this is going to be a LONNNNNNGGG year!!!

becca93 · July 2012

theflaherty5 wrote:

So I did not read all the responses, but my favorite books for raising kids are the Love and Logic books from Fay and Cline. They have a Love and Logic for toddlers. I swear by them toddlers through teens! GL

I'm on this one right now--referred to the book by a first-grade teacher who uses the approach with her three small boys. I'm starting with simple: when kids rant and rave, have a standby non-committal response. You cannot reason with small children. You can, however, say, "Probably so" or "That's too bad" in response to "I don't want to go to beeed!"

I'm only using two other pieces of advice so far: start with the love, and then apply the logic. I say, "I will be happy to do X," x being what the kid wants, "once you do Y." Then, if the child continues to argue, come back with "I love you too much to argue about this."

Ex.
DS: I wanna do a puzzle!
Me: It's bedtime. Nope.
DS: But I'm not tired! I wanna do a puzzle!
Me: That's too bad.
DS: If you don't let me do a puzzle, I will never, ever go to sleep in ten hundred million years.
Me: That's too bad. I will be happy to do a puzzle with you tomorrow once you have a good sleep tonight.
DS: Puzzle now!
Me: I will be happy to do a puzzle with you tomorrow once you have a good sleep tonight.
DS: Why do you keep saying that?! I heard you the first thousand times!
Me: I love you too much to argue with you.
DS: You're a mean mommy.
Me: I love you too much to argue with you.

(and if he stays quiet for longer than two seconds, I follow up with a simple choice--brush teeth first or pajamas first? if he doesn't, I repeat the love you too much and wait for him in his room)

We just started this program, on top of some things from The Total Transformation that you can order online. DS is a kid who seems to thrive on conflict and who will misbehave to get attention. We're trying to short-circuit that.

cptncrb · July 2012

Thank you so much for starting this thread. 3 has been very tough and now with the new baby, it feels like a battle every day. We are on vacation and last night we went to dinner with friends and their 3 year old and it was rough because, he was over tired and well 3. I will use a lot of this advice.

How do I get my 3-year old to listen (and obey) me?

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