Please help me with discipline advice - sibling jealousy

Kari

I have a very stubborn child, and I cannot figure out what will work when it comes to discipline. Today he said no over 50 times to me (and then continued to do whatever he darn well pleased) and hurt Juliet at least a dozen times to - as he told me at the end of the day - get my attention. The discipline I've been using is time-outs. Sometimes I only need to remind him that doing what he wants will lead to time out, and he'll cease. Sometimes. Time-outs don't seem to deter him from repeating the behavior, though, and he is more interested in screaming through the time-out than focusing on the behavior.

He does these other things that just set himself up for failure all the time, like tonight he wanted me to climb into his bed to talk to him after Juliet fell asleep. So I got into bed with him, hoping to put a good end to a difficult day. As soon as I got up there, he said he didn't want to talk to me, so I said I'd get down if that was the case. He asked me to leave, then cried when I did. Other times he'll ask me to do something for him (brush teeth, change diaper, put on shoes) and then run away as soon as I get the tooth brush/diaper/shoes. So I put the stuff away and he cries. Or he'll ask me to make mac'n'cheese for lunch, then refuse to eat it, or get him a drink and he pours it on the floor. It's this constant pull-you-near, push-you-away thing.

If he's getting in trouble to get my attention, but then his punishment is time-out by himself in his bedroom, he really isn't gaining anything but he doesn't see that. Or when he hurts his sister, I go to her first and give her attention and not him . . . so why does he keep doing it?!? Everyone who sees these things happen says it's jealousy, but how do I get him through it? And equally important, how do I maintain my sanity and protect Juliet while this is going on?

I thought maybe trying a reward system for good behavior might work, but how might this look for a child who's misbehaving 50-70 times a day? Half-hour goals? Fifteen minutes in the beginning? I'm assuming if it's jealousy and my attention that he wants, then the rewards should be a short activity with me, but it needs to be short and easy so I can still get everything else done I need to get done, yet they need to be valuable enough for him to want to achieve.

I was questioning earlier this week if it's a behavioral piece that might be more physiological, but doubt it because I get great reports back on his behavior when he's with my dad, sister, and daycare . . . basically, when he's not around Juliet! My dad has occasionally had to say no a couple times to him to get him to stop something, but that's the extent of it. And he's quite well-behaved while she's sleeping.

Advice? What's worked for you and your kids?

michgirl

I don't have an answer for you but you just described my "normal" day with Jorddan (and he has ALWAYS had his brother with him).

Usually I sent him to his room (which I NEVER wanted to do but it seems to work) after a few minutes he will usually call out "Mommy I can be nice now."

The pull you close push you away I have NO IDEA what to do with it. Every now and then when he start to do it a lot I will grab a blanket and wrap him up and rock him sympathize with him, ie oh my poor Jorddan feeling out of sorts today, needs some mommy time and doe snot know how to ask for it. I do not like to "reward" him but some times he just needs cuddle time.

annerbones

I don't know - if someone does know tell me what the secret is!!

mel

I have no idea about the younger sibling/displacement thing, but my kids fight daily, so I do see the aggression. I rarely use time outs. I've figured out that the more disagreeable my kids are being, the more they need one-on-one time with me. I just make sure we have enough other close times that they're not acting out for the "reward" of being with me. Frankly, it's not much of a reward, as we're still discussing the behavior, role-playing more acceptable ways to cope, etc. It's just more of a "time-in" with guidance and love than sending them away.

Shanny

For a reward system you may want to try the marble jar friend amy mentioned on here a while back. You basically put marbles in to a jar whenever you catch him being good. For someone who is constantly being "bad" this can really help to shift the tide. Draw a line on the jar so the number of marbles to fill it will be obtainable and have him choose his reward. When he reaches the line he gets the reward. (Make the line low and marbles big for quick success so he "gets" it.). Oh and marbles don't come out once they go in and where you guys are right now sounds like you'll have to be very careful NOT to mention the marble jar at any time other than positive (ie "you did a great job playing nicely next to your sister" and never "if you don't play nicely you won't get a marble"), I think that is important to keep it positive.

I'm wondering how most of the push pull scenarios you described end? For example if he asks for mac and cheese and refuses to eat it do you make him something else? Do you save it for later, talk about it, does he throw a fit or just refuse? If he cries for you to do something and you try to help him then he refuses then what happens?

Zen

My advice is twofold. Shower Justin with praise and accolades for all good and/or altruistic deeds. Play up helping you with Juliet so he sees her as a source of reward more than as a rival. The other half of my advice is not going to be popular but as much as you beam at him for being good, I think you need to display anger and disapproval for bad behavior. Zero tolerance for purposely hurting his sister. Make it black and white for him. Hugs and kisses and love for being nice. Anger and discipline and time outs for being mean. You can spell it out for him verbally too. Let him know that you love him and will always protect him. No one is allowed to hurt him. And you love and will always protect Juliet. And no one is allowed to hurt her. You would be furious if someone hurt your son -- and he knows that. It's okay for him to see the same applies to Juliet.

Siblings have been battling it out across the ages but I think Justin will come around

old mama

I have delt with this problem forever and at every age. It is tough. He is small so it is hard to get him to understand. If you go with some kind of award system make the time period short...like you have seen their attention span is short. I would come down on him like a ton of bricks however if he hurt the baby...even little guys can learn that mom might take a lot but that type of behavior is unexcuseable. One thing if you can do it is to ignore a lot of the little things and avoid getting into a hastle with him...for example if my son demanded a food and I made it and he did not eat it I would walk away. He would NOT get anything else to eat until the next meal time...If he pushed me away after asking me to crawl in bed...I would walk away and do my darnest to not give in and go back no matter how much he cried...poor MOM he is really testing you..Keep Strong!

Kari

With the food situation I do not prepare a new meal. It's what he requested or nothing. He gets a snack and milk before bed if he wants it. When he asks for something like a new diaper and then runs away, I tell him he loses his turn and move on to the next thing that needs to get done and then come back to him a few minutes later. Otherwise we'd never make it out the door in the 2 hours it takes us to get out of the house.

Storkhunting

My son was barely 12 months old when I brought home his brother Noah. I was really worried at first that he would feel left out or get jealous, so for the first couple of months I made sure to include him as much as he wanted. One thing I never did that alot of people do is force him to like his baby brother by making him kiss or hug on him. Right from the beginning I let him climb up with us if I was feeding or holding the baby. I didn't panic if he tried to touch the baby, just incouraged gental touching. I always refered to the baby as Our Noah or Our brother. When I did things for the baby I would verbalize them. I would say things like, its time for Noah's nap or Joke about how Noah had a stinky bum. I tried to make him see that Noah was just like him. When the baby cried I would say things like Noah is sad and give a reason why. For the most part Sebastian treated Noah like a part of the furniture as if he had always been there and he has never once done anything to purposefully hurt him. For the past month or so Sebastian has actually started to interact with his brother on his own. He will pick up a pacifier if it falls and put it in his brothers mouth and just yesterday I watched as he played with Noah in his execersaucer. At 18 months he picked up a toy and handed it to his brother to play with all on his own. I would just recommend that you remain consistant with what ever discipline method you choose. I would probably talk up Juilet to him and try to teach empathy to him. I would say things like "Wow, Juilet really like when you play with her, or Juilet enjoys when you read a book with her. I would sing little made up songs about how Juilet love's her brother and include different positive things Justin does with her. When Juilet gets upset or is happy I would point it out to Justin and compare it to things that make him happy or sad. When it comes to time outs I would also tell Justin how you feel. For example I would say something like "It makes mommy very sad when you hurt Juilet". I find that being seperated from me is often all the dicipline I need. When Sebastian tried biting for the first time I would say no that hurst mommy and put him firmly away and say mommy can't hold you if you bite. I only had to tell him twice because he wanted to sit with me more than he wanted to bite. So maybe you could put his time out chair in a seperate room where he will quickly lose interest in screaming if there is no one to see or hear and he gets no attention for doing it. Say things like you and Juilet will miss him while he is on time out and you hope he will listen better next time ect.
I wish there was some concrete formula for dealing with jealousy and discipline but all I can recommend is don't lose your temper, stay calm as you can and verbalize feelings for him to understand.

allthingslucky

A lot of it to me sounds like control with him. For instance the asking you to get in bed with him then him not wanting anything to do with you then crying to see if you would come back. Do you have clear expectations and disipline set up? Like I expect you to be kind and gentle with Juliet, if you are not xyz happens. Then every time follow through with it. THe other thing being, you might have to show him whos boss. There is no reason it should take 2 hours to get out the door. If he needs to be changed, clothed etc, just do it. Let him scream, cry, pitch a fit, try to run. Empathize with him during the process "I know you are mad that you have to be changed right now, but we need to go to the store." Don't give in and do what needs to be done. Eventually he will realize you mean business. I say this with all the gentleness I have, but right now he runs the show. If it doesn't stop, then when he gets bigger it will the the same thing, but he will be bigger and stronger. Clearly, he doesn't respect you take you seriously that's why he's so good with everyone else. At this point I would take him to a psychologist for some play thearpy. They don't just help adults work through feelings.

Its so easy for all of us to tell you what to do hundreds of miles away. Maybe someone (like a psychologist) closer to home that can work with the both of you could help a lot.

mel

Kari wrote:

He does these other things that just set himself up for failure all the time, like tonight he wanted me to climb into his bed to talk to him after Juliet fell asleep. So I got into bed with him, hoping to put a good end to a difficult day. As soon as I got up there, he said he didn't want to talk to me, so I said I'd get down if that was the case. He asked me to leave, then cried when I did.

I read an article today that made me think of you. It was about preventing meltdowns and emphasized how important it is to have a good relationship with your child, so they will WANT to listen and follow your guidance. It said that the more oppositional a child is, the more they need that relationship strengthened. I bookmarked it at work and can't find it now, but I'll come back with the link if I do. I have seen exactly that with my own kids, especially with their other mom. She worried about their behavior for a while and thought she could improve it by being more harsh and strict with time-outs. It totally backfired.

Another thing I like to remember is the quote "Your child is not giving you a hard time. Your child is HAVING a hard time."

When he asked you to talk in bed and then sent you away, did you tell him that you wanted to talk to him or just that you'd leave if he didn't want to? I wonder if he was just wanting you to want it? If my son did that (and he does things like that sometimes), I would tell him that if he didn't want to talk, that was ok, but I'd like to lie down with him for a while, that I missed him when we weren't together and I really want some (name)-time. So for you, it would be Justin Time. If he were so mad he didn't want me in bed, I'd say "ok, I'll just sit here next to you. I love you so much. If you decide you'd like to cuddle or talk, please let me know. I really want to spend time with you."

You have to make that connection. It seems like he's demanding all these things just to see if you'll do them for him, and then he doesn't care much because the *things* aren't what are going to help him feel better. If he is "misbehaving" 50-70 times a day, what is going on? How much time does he get with you telling him how wonderful he is, how lucky you are to be his mom, how much you love him, and things like that? How do you redirect him when it is happening so frequently? Are you getting down on the floor with him, making eye contact, talking through things, etc? Or just telling him to go to his room?

I COMPLETELY understand how you must feel so overwhelmed and worn down, but I think fewer time outs and more time with mom loving on him would do a lot of good.