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Class Type Settings & Socialization
roses25
Posts: 567
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to help Aiden deal a little bit better in class type settings.
At church Aiden goes up to the children's message (a short kid sermon during church) at the front of the church by himself (he used to make me go up there and want to sit on my lap). He used to sit 5 feet away from the other kids, but now he sits in this little corner that's still away from the other kids. He's still sitting on the alter with the other kids and still 5 feet away from them, but just on the side of it where there's a piece of furniture in front of him. He sits in this corner when they sing at the beg. of Sunday School too. I've suggested to him before going up that he sits by the other kids, but that doesn't make a difference. I've also asked him why he doesn't sit by the other kids, and he doesn't have an answer for me. When they go into the classroom he sits at the table with the other kids. He's excited to go to both the children's message and Sunday School. So how do I help my apparently very resistant to groups of children boy be a little more socially appropriate?
He also started preschool gymnastics classes and has been to two classes. He's taken mommy and me gymnastics classes for the past 1-2 years, but this is his first gymnastics class where I'm not out there with him. I do stay and watch though. He's so excited for gymnastics. The first time he was jumping up and down screaming with excitment when I told him it was gymnastics day. Last week he talked constantly about gymnastics class to his babysitter. So he clearly loves gymnastics, but just not the class type setting. I should say that the gym is crazy when we are there. There are 10-12 preschoolers in the class with 2 teachers, and thankfully they are in a preschool area that's separated from the big gym because there's lots and lots of kids in the big gym area. All of the preschool classes are full, so there aren't any smaller classes to move him to.
The first gymnastics class he cried for the first 25 minutes. Then he did finally do some gymnastics. The class is 50 minutes long. Last week he only cried for 5 minutes, but then he choose to be stubborn and sit in the way of things and wouldn't move for the next 15 minutes. After that he did participate in gymnastics for the last 30 minutes, but not like the other kids. He didn't wait in line and would often do several skills over and over before moving on down the obstical course. They let him do this and I tried to step in and tell him to keep moving, but it didn't make a difference....Maybe I just need to step out and let them handle it. I'm not sure if they are scared to tell him to stay in line, etc. and are just trying to get him to enjoy the class first or what. He doesn't get waiting in lines, etc. because this is his first real exposure to that class type stuff of waiting in lines, walking in a line, etc. He exhausts me just watching him because at first he's a crying mess, then he just doesn't do anything when I've droven an hour each way for him to learn gymnastics and they've told me they can't make him do anything (so if he wants to sit there for the whole hour and do nothing that's not their problem), and then once he does start participating he's all over the place and not waiting in lines and following the social rules like the other kids. Now the other kids are pros at waiting in lines, etc. so either they are possibly a little older than Aiden like maybe 4 or obviously they've had exposure to this type of environment before. They all are much bigger than Aiden, but that's not a very good gage as to how old they are because Aiden is so small for his age. The class is for 3-5 year olds. So any suggestions on how to help Aiden do better with his gymnastics class? I'm afraid the teachers will tell me that it's just not working out with him in the class. I'm not sure how many weeks it will take him to enjoy it, participate fully, and follow the social rules that go with a class type environment. I'm one exhausted mommy watching him, and maybe I just need to leave and let them deal with him? But I'm afraid then he'd really freak out. He won't tell his teachers things like he needs a klenex or he has to go potty (he comes to me for these things). I take him potty before class to try and avoid this, but even last time he still came to me to take him potty. None of the other kids leave class to go potty or ask their moms for klenex's.
I'm open to any suggestions on how to help Aiden deal with these social situations better.
Carolyn
At church Aiden goes up to the children's message (a short kid sermon during church) at the front of the church by himself (he used to make me go up there and want to sit on my lap). He used to sit 5 feet away from the other kids, but now he sits in this little corner that's still away from the other kids. He's still sitting on the alter with the other kids and still 5 feet away from them, but just on the side of it where there's a piece of furniture in front of him. He sits in this corner when they sing at the beg. of Sunday School too. I've suggested to him before going up that he sits by the other kids, but that doesn't make a difference. I've also asked him why he doesn't sit by the other kids, and he doesn't have an answer for me. When they go into the classroom he sits at the table with the other kids. He's excited to go to both the children's message and Sunday School. So how do I help my apparently very resistant to groups of children boy be a little more socially appropriate?
He also started preschool gymnastics classes and has been to two classes. He's taken mommy and me gymnastics classes for the past 1-2 years, but this is his first gymnastics class where I'm not out there with him. I do stay and watch though. He's so excited for gymnastics. The first time he was jumping up and down screaming with excitment when I told him it was gymnastics day. Last week he talked constantly about gymnastics class to his babysitter. So he clearly loves gymnastics, but just not the class type setting. I should say that the gym is crazy when we are there. There are 10-12 preschoolers in the class with 2 teachers, and thankfully they are in a preschool area that's separated from the big gym because there's lots and lots of kids in the big gym area. All of the preschool classes are full, so there aren't any smaller classes to move him to.
The first gymnastics class he cried for the first 25 minutes. Then he did finally do some gymnastics. The class is 50 minutes long. Last week he only cried for 5 minutes, but then he choose to be stubborn and sit in the way of things and wouldn't move for the next 15 minutes. After that he did participate in gymnastics for the last 30 minutes, but not like the other kids. He didn't wait in line and would often do several skills over and over before moving on down the obstical course. They let him do this and I tried to step in and tell him to keep moving, but it didn't make a difference....Maybe I just need to step out and let them handle it. I'm not sure if they are scared to tell him to stay in line, etc. and are just trying to get him to enjoy the class first or what. He doesn't get waiting in lines, etc. because this is his first real exposure to that class type stuff of waiting in lines, walking in a line, etc. He exhausts me just watching him because at first he's a crying mess, then he just doesn't do anything when I've droven an hour each way for him to learn gymnastics and they've told me they can't make him do anything (so if he wants to sit there for the whole hour and do nothing that's not their problem), and then once he does start participating he's all over the place and not waiting in lines and following the social rules like the other kids. Now the other kids are pros at waiting in lines, etc. so either they are possibly a little older than Aiden like maybe 4 or obviously they've had exposure to this type of environment before. They all are much bigger than Aiden, but that's not a very good gage as to how old they are because Aiden is so small for his age. The class is for 3-5 year olds. So any suggestions on how to help Aiden do better with his gymnastics class? I'm afraid the teachers will tell me that it's just not working out with him in the class. I'm not sure how many weeks it will take him to enjoy it, participate fully, and follow the social rules that go with a class type environment. I'm one exhausted mommy watching him, and maybe I just need to leave and let them deal with him? But I'm afraid then he'd really freak out. He won't tell his teachers things like he needs a klenex or he has to go potty (he comes to me for these things). I take him potty before class to try and avoid this, but even last time he still came to me to take him potty. None of the other kids leave class to go potty or ask their moms for klenex's.
I'm open to any suggestions on how to help Aiden deal with these social situations better.
Carolyn
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Progesterone therapy and baby aspirin daily
Two miscarriages in between (August 2012 - same donor as Maggie, and December 2014 with husband)
Maggie
I agree that it would be best for you to step back and let them handle it. If he can't see you, he might do better. They're right that they can't make him do those things - they are busy focusing on the kids who want to participate. I would talk to one of the teachers and ask for their ideas. I'm sure they've seen this situation before.
My opinion is vastly different from other people's, so I'll warn you of that first. Im not sure how to put this without saying it bluntly, so I'll just be blunt. What you're saying is that you want him to learn to be part of the herd, to be corralled into conformity. I say he has his whole life to do that! This is why we won't put E into daycare or preschool, because we don't want her to have to do all of those things you're saying that you want. Now, I understand that you think he would have more fun and enjoy the class more if he did conform, and that may be true, but it's also true that he may enjoy going to the park and stomping in the mud just as much and there will be plenty of time for regimented discipline later in his life.
I know perfectly well that allowing E to follow her own steam makes her a pain in the @ss for teachers, that's why we don't expect her to be cared for and taught by teachers yet. She can be very strong willed and opinionated and she doesn't follow the crowd, ever, but these are things that in many ways our society sees as negative in children and positive in adults. We want her to have a strong base in knowing herself and her owns needs and wants before she branches out and negotiates the larger community. (Let me add to this that she is also being raised to respect her elders, treat other people with loving kindness, and to consider the feelings of others as well as her own, lest anyone think I'm advocating total child dictatorship.)
If Aiden isn't ready, he isn't ready. If you see yourself wanting a different way of being than what you've had before, potentially thinking forward to when his sibling comes, that's ok too. But a lot of the time if you really sit down and try to identify the problem with great specificity you may find the solution is already there to be found.
My kids enjoy stomping in mud and going to the park. They also enjoy dance, swimming lessons, and t-ball, and they take turns in those things without any regimented discipline. You don't have to only have one or the other.
As I said, my opinion is very different from other people's. It's not going to be the same as yours and I'm not going to do things the same way you do. As this is a discussion board, I offer my opinion as one of many. That's all.
Maybe it's because my kids are multiples and they've always taken turns, but it just comes naturally for them. They're excited to see friends do things. They don't mind waiting because they know their turn is coming. You said you're raising E with loving kindness, so I would think that would include being happy for friends and taking turns with them. The questions that I asked (that you did not answer) were serious questions. I just don't think you only have to have one or the other. I understand that you feel strongly that your way is the right way but I think it's pretty irresponsible to suggest that a child who can wait their turn and participate with others has been exposed to "regimented discipline" instead of acting out of kindness and maturity in playing with others.
Anywho - this too will probably be a "vastly different" opinion. As someone who takes my child's extra cirricular activities very seriously (and expects the same of her) I am never thrilled to see the distracting kids in her class. If a teacher has to take time away from the kids who actually want to participate to "corale" someone who doesn't - it is frustrating for everyone. It isn't the instructors "problem". They've got too many kids, and ones who want to be there and are also paying for the class to learn gymnastics, not proper group behavior. I'm not saying no kid in class should ever require and extra moment of attention but this sounds like much more than that. I don't know what your general discipline style is - what do you do to convey to Aiden that a behavior is unacceptable? Does he want to take this class even? I make it a point not to give advice I know nothing about so I won't touch the Church issue, haha.
As far as helping him - I know you have had limited opportunities for him in social settings due to circumstances beyond your control - so I am not saying this is your "fault", but if Aiden "isn't ready" as was suggested, it is because you haven't gotten him ready. And if you think you are exhausted watching a 3 year old roll around the mat instead of participating what do you think it will be like to watch a 5 or 6 year old start school who hasn't learned how to function in a group setting? They walk in a line with the little ones in a gym for safety reasons not to be "part of the herd". So you can practice this at home. Have him walk behind you when you go to get the mail with his hands on your hips and your hands over his. Use the terms for taking turns, waiting and patience at every chance you get. If he can't take turns in gymnastics class his world is about to be rocked when you have this baby. In our gym we have a glass divider so parents stay and watch but aren't in the actual gym. Children who need to use the bathroom during class are brought out to their parents if they need assistance. I would let Aiden know he needs to communicate to his teacher if he needs to go and then you will take him when they bring him to you. I wouldn't leave the gym - that could start a very different set of issues. Can you arrange play dates with any of the children from church or gym class? Even just going to a park with other kids around provides opportunities to wait his turn for the slide etc. But the key to these things at his age is using the vocabulary over and over. When he goes to barrel up the slide someone else is on you have teachable moment he obviously needs "we have to wait our turn Aiden. When he is finished then you get to go. Just like at gymnastics class. Remember? Thank you for waiting. Great jon, now it is your turn". And on and on and on. Beating a dead horse must have been a phrase coined when talking about kids. You just can't say these things enough...
I will share with you our gymnastics experience so you don't feel so bad. The class starts off with stretching exercises. Ray is excited to pick a carpet square and sit in a circle but he really doesn't care for the stretching at all. Over the summer, he mostly would just sit in my lap and pout and not participate. I follow along with the stretches to see if he will join me. Most of the time he didn't. He has slowly gotten better at this but really it is his least favorite part of class. Then it is usually on to balance beam or bars. He likes both of these so he is pretty in to the activity and there are enough different bars and beams that there is little waiting. Then on to bouncing on the trampoline which he LOVES. But this is the part where he tends to melt down because he wants to do it so badly that he has a hard time waiting his turn. But even this has gotten better. We talk about it a lot on the way to class. I acknowledge that waiting your turn is hard but the other kids want turns too and it wouldn't be nice to go out of turn. And I even point out examples where mommy has to wait... like at the grocery store or a stop light. He was funny the other week while waiting to use one of the bars, he says to me on his own "Waiting is hard, mommy." But then this past week, he was sitting on the line waiting for his turn to jump and I asked him if the waiting was hard and he proudly said "no, it is easy!!" But even when he does well with the waiting, then he hates leaving the jumping to do the obstacle course or the foam blocks. He will generally do the course once but then he whines and points at the trampoline and says he wants to jump. If we make it to the foam blocks, he rarely enjoys it. He likes the blocks but he is just done with listening and following directions at this point. Sometimes we don't make it to the blocks because he is so stubborn and upset at this point that I just take him home.
I say just stick with it. I was about as horrified as you when Ray first did that gym class last year. But Mel gave me the great advice to just keep exposing him to these kind of situations and eventually he will come around. And he is much better. I no longer sweat him not following along as sweetly as the other kids. Really, it isn't a surprise to the teachers and they aren't as horrified as you think. All of our teachers have been great in encouraging us that he would come around.
I also don't want to stifle him and make him a robot. Ray is more of a march to his own drummer kind of kid. But he does need to learn to follow some rules and I feel these classes are helping him do that. K&H, I am sometimes torn about how to tell him he can't jump when there are no other kids jumping at that time. So I see both sides of that argument and would comment more but right now I have to put my little drummer to bed
As for gymnastics and queues ... that's rote learning. I was amazed to see Shiloh's little preschool class walk single file, hands on the next child's shoulders, from class to playground or kitchen or potty. I laughed when they filed from one class to another with the door just a few feet away. But the teacher told me they go everywhere in a line. Actually, she called it a train -- and all the kids know not to break the train!
Gymnastics should be fun. If you're driving an hour and the kid is miserable, bail. Seriously. Take a break from this activity and try again in a few months.
it doesn't sound like aiden is ready for gymnastics just yet. is there a younger group he could join? until he gets the groove of listening to the instructor and being safe? being patient is hard, but it's necessary for him to learn - especially with a new baby!
is preschool an option for him? something a little more structured do he gets exposed to teachers/other kids? it might be a good idea for both of you - so you get time with the baby, and he gets time for "big kid" stuff.
DS (7) - d#470
Boy, n.: a noise with dirt on it.
What I'm talking about here is moral development and society. I think that's what Shanny is trying to get at as well. I think the biggest difference in our perspectives, however, is that age of the child closest to us. I have a 2 year old, Shanny and Mel have 4 (and nearly 4) year olds. There is an extreme difference in moral development and the ability to understand a group in those ages. As Aiden is just barely 3, he is not and should not yet be expected to be at the same place as older children. True, we can have high expectations and move toward the next steps in development, but a crying miserable child with a worried, tired, upset mother is not in a space where he is going to be able to use an experience for growth and development. Sure, he may figure out how to tolerate it and appear to others as though he 'got it', but when you push a child to do something they aren't yet able to understand, they come out of it feeling that they are doing the "wrong thing" and they don't even know what that is, so they must be what's wrong. Pushing him to conform to the class and expecting him to understand other children's perspectives will simply be telling him that he is wrong to do what he is doing.
Roses, you say that he can't tell you why he doesn't sit with the other children at church. Of course he can't. He doesn't know why. All he knows is what is in his head. If he sits off to the side it is because it is right, in his head, to sit off to the side. You can keep telling him to sit with the other children, but he's not able to see yet that your reasons (he looks weird, he can't see as well, he doesn't play well with others) exist. He is only capable of seeing his own idea. Maybe the floor is softer there, maybe the temperature is different, maybe he doesn't like being touched by other kids, who knows. But to him, reality is that he likes where he sits and he is not yet able to understand that you don't.
I highly recommend the book “Raising Good Children” by Thomas Lickona. He discusses the well-researched and well-known stages of moral development, specifying how these apply to children and parenting. A 3 year old only understands that they should get to do what they want to do. If they do what you want, it is only because they want rewards or to avoid punishment. Three year olds are not yet cognitively able to understand the reasons behind behavior. Four year olds are barely, and maybe not even yet, able to start to think about why people do the things they do and why they should or should not do something. True, behaviors can be learned and kids can do what’s right and repeat back why they should or should not do something. But real, true understanding of it doesn’t come until much later. Understanding that social rules and expectations apply because ‘what if everybody did it’ really doesn’t come until high school and early adulthood (and maybe never for Shanny’s boss!) At Aiden’s age he should be able to explore and do his favorite gymnastic activity a thousand times. That’s how kids his age learn, through repetition. Forcing children to stay in line, do something once and then move on? That’s not teaching them gymnastics, how to move their bodies, how to achieve and succeed. That’s teaching them how to follow the group, do what they’re told, and conform to someone else’s expectations with little to no understanding of the reason behind it. I understand that ‘practice makes perfect’, but those aren’t skills I want my child to practice at such a young age. There’s plenty of time for it later. Just because a 3 year old is self motivated and self interested does not mean that they will be a selfish, rude, immoral adult.
K&H, you don't know how disciplined his gymnastics class is. I cannot imagine any class (except at the most elite gyms, if there even) for 3-year-olds is focused on discipline and dedication to the sport, and if it is, it is certainly not the place for Aiden or most 3-year-olds. You probably wouldn't know this since you'd never have your child in any of those horrible classes to be "corralled into conformity" but they are actually all about fun. And, wonder of wonders, kids have fun! Even independent, free thinking, self motivated kids. I just got home from watching my son forced to conform at t-ball. It's one of the highlights of his week.
roses, does that gym have open gym time? That might be a good compromise for you!
We took a break for a couple of months and then moved to The Little Gym for a combination dance/gymnastics class. It was awful. This as a class where we were not in the class with her. We were in a waiting room. She would not stay in the dance class at all. I even tried going in with her, but she still would not participate. She loved the gymnastics class but again, only wanted to do what she wanted to do. Se would not stay with the class or the teacher. She loved the equipment but did it her way and not the way it was modeled because she never saw that part. We did this for a couple of months and finally just left out of embarrassment. Again, all the kids were the same age and she was the only one not following the routine. As her moms, we finally had to admit something was wrong.
It still took a few months but we finally sought help and she was diagnosed with sensory processing disorder, which we came to find out was affecting EVERY AREA OF HER LIFE! Her issues were severe and although we still have issues things are so much better. She is now in a gymnastics class where she listens, stays with the class, follows the teachers directions, and does exactly what she is supposed to be doing. She has also been diagnosed with severe ADHD, which we are treating naturally.
She goes to occupational therapy 2x a week and has for 1 1/2 years. I cannot describe the difference in her. It is amazing. She is still her but so much better. It really sounds to me like Aiden may have something like sensory issues going on with him. What you describe is exactly what how I would have described my daughter. I am not a doctor but we are living this and it has been really hard. I highly recommend you seek out an OT for an evaluation. I would think it would be worth at least a look to rule it out if nothing else. It has saved us!
I wish you the best, and you have any questions, feel free to message me.
Thanks for listening,
Tara
I'm well educated, also, but don't feel the need to share that to add weight to my opinions. I'm basing mine on actual experience with my own children. At 2, I wouldn't have put them in a class. But my kids are twice as old as your toddler, and things are different.
I think it's valuable to have different opinions here.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I have a friend who's daughter sounds a lot like Aiden. Not just in this post, but in other posts too. Maybe it would be worth looking into and having him evaulated?
Carolyn