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Gender and Our Kids
aplusa
Posts: 1,919
I remember a few months ago we had a thread about the difference between "gender" and "sex," specifically what to call that 'anatomy' scan in the middle of most of our pregnancies. My partner, who goes by the gender-queerish 'baba' to our babies, had this article up on the screen and I thought I'd share. Here's the link to the full article on Mutha Magazine.
http://muthamagazine.com/2014/01/mama-ella-has-a-penis-marlo-mack-on-how-to-talk-to-your-children-about-gender-identity/
And here's an excerpt:
"But what few of us question is whether little Jack is really Jack. I certainly didn’t. Chances are, the moment the ultrasound tech delivered the news (“It’s a boy!”), Jack’s parents began to dream a thousand gendered dreams for that kid. They saw that grainy black-and-white photo of their unborn child, with his tiny little “man bits,” and they assumed they knew certain basic truths about him. And maybe they did. Maybe he is Jack. Then again, maybe he’s like my child, whose ultrasound photo clearly showed a penis – but she’s actually Jill."
Sometimes my partner and I worry we go too much to the gender neutral extreme, but I figure it can only hurt as much as arbitrarily deciding any body part makes us anything. I mean, I've got two legs and I'm certainly not a runner . . .
Just thought I'd share!
http://muthamagazine.com/2014/01/mama-ella-has-a-penis-marlo-mack-on-how-to-talk-to-your-children-about-gender-identity/
And here's an excerpt:
"But what few of us question is whether little Jack is really Jack. I certainly didn’t. Chances are, the moment the ultrasound tech delivered the news (“It’s a boy!”), Jack’s parents began to dream a thousand gendered dreams for that kid. They saw that grainy black-and-white photo of their unborn child, with his tiny little “man bits,” and they assumed they knew certain basic truths about him. And maybe they did. Maybe he is Jack. Then again, maybe he’s like my child, whose ultrasound photo clearly showed a penis – but she’s actually Jill."
Sometimes my partner and I worry we go too much to the gender neutral extreme, but I figure it can only hurt as much as arbitrarily deciding any body part makes us anything. I mean, I've got two legs and I'm certainly not a runner . . .
Just thought I'd share!
Lucky Cycle 14: IVF!! Antagonist Cycle with Lupron Trigger
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I swore for as long as I can remember that I wouldn't get "pink" or "blue" stuff when I had kids. The nursery would be green and brown, all the clothes would be yellow and white and green and grey, all the toys would be wooden blocks, etc. I wasn't even going to find out ahead of time what we were having. Then I went through the high-tech world of IVF and it became an option to know even before the embryos were transferred which sex they were. And after the experiences I'd had, I really wanted to know.
Then when I found out we were having a girl, I said I wasn't going to do everything in pink and purple. I wasn't opposed to some pink stuff, but it had to be tasteful, like mixed with yellow or green. Absolutely no Disney princess crap or little onesies that said "cutie" or "pretty" or "spoiled". I didn't want to condition the kid to take on certain gender roles that society expected her to take on, especially not from birth. But guess what? I have a onesie hanging in her closet right now that says "pretty" and another that says "I'm the cutest niece". I think there might even be a pair of pants with a Disney logo on it. People are just giving me hand-me-down clothes, and I feel I would look ungrateful if I explained to them about how I won't allow her to wear these things because of society's stereotypes. People already look at me like I have three heads when I tell them we're going to cloth diaper and that I'll make my own baby food. I can just imagine their reactions when I start talking about gender roles....
Personally I don't understand the idea of feeling like a boy or feeling like a girl. I've always just felt like me. Even when I was pregnant, even when I was pushing an 8 lb baby down through my vagina, I still didn't feel like a gender. Just a person (an incredibly strong person, and with incredibly strong pain!). That experience was magnificent, life-altering, and so powerful to me, but even something as uniquely female as creating new life didn't make me identify with anything else related to gender culture.
With our babes, we didn't want to assume anything about their personalities/identities, so we were careful to choose names that are meaningful but weren't tied to Team Pink or Team Blue. Toyed with the idea of sending out birth announcements proclaiming, "It's a... Baby!" and not mentioning gender at all. Also considered avoiding pronouns and gender altogether but it is SOOOOO important (wtf, society) to everyone that there'd be a sh!tstorm if we did that. Because how can you possibly know how to properly interact with someone if you don't know about their genitals/gender assignment, right? Our parents would have accused us of child abuse or trying to make our children freakshows if we did that. So that was only a brief consideration. But we immediately respond whenever a comment or conversation is sexist or gender-stereotyped. When people go on about how beautiful our daughter is or how strong our son is, we agree but also remind them how strong our daughter is and how beautiful our son is (and smart and kind and funny and wow, how did we get so lucky to be parents to such amazing kids?)
I'm sure everyone in our family thinks we're cuckoo. But we've never worried ourselves too much with how others perceive our parenting, so long as no one's calling CPS on our little genderqueer hippie eco-conscious family.
Thankfully my family, for being a bunch of conservative Catholics (and recovering Catholics) they are pretty dang cool with it all and our views on gender. My sister got the boys their first baby dolls for Christmas and my brother got them gender neutral clothes. (We all used to buy my niece gender neutral clothes, too.)
I am actually having the most issues with the in laws. They are these 'super cool, liberal' folks who mock my "close minded" family. BUT, they refuse to accept that my partner does not go by the title "mom" or "'mommy" and they dislike that we don't identify as a two "mom" family. One of these days I will snap and pop them in the face. With all the comments, I've always said: it's fine until my children can understand them - and when my children can understand them, it's no longer OK to make any part of our family seem less then. But, we are very close to that and I know the babies can already feel stress from me about things that have been said.
They also think babies need to learn independence cause they are out of the womb now, but that's a whole different thread.
Lucky Cycle 14: IVF!! Antagonist Cycle with Lupron Trigger
i love this quote. that's all.
. . . and this one.
I feel that. I said that too. When R was about 6 months old, she was clearly taking in everything we were saying so I couldn't risk it past that point. She could show her understanding of several words and who knows how much she was absorbing. My biggest struggle has been (well-meaning, I think) family asking questions like "Can R/W do/say/etc this or that?" and talking about R & W as if they are oblivious to the conversation like inanimate objects or something. It was just after 6 months that I put a kibosh on talking about R in front of R like she wasn't there. That's still an issue with some family members, but my go-to statement is "I'd rather not talk about R/W like they're not here - let's include R/W in our conversation and they can decide if they want to tell/show you."
Oy. My mom is a huge fan of "independent" babies and the whole "babies crying to manipulate" school of thought. I tell her that independence is born out of great trust or great neglect, and that I'd rather teach my babies independence by first teaching them that they can trust their caregivers to respond, instead of teaching them independence by making them give up on anyone coming to help them. Crying is the only language they have to communicate that something isn't right. So if they're crying "just" to get my attention, what is the problem with that? They can't exactly stroll up to me and say, "Mom, I really need a hug and to tell you about my day."
When I hear that song "You make me feel like a natural womaaaaan....." I just scratch my head and wonder if I'm on the right planet and I wonder what it feels like to feel like a woman. I mean, I guess sometimes I feel oppressed, underpaid, and objectified. Does that count? Is that what they mean?
But, I am a woman and I feel like a woman. When I gave birth I felt like a woman. I never felt more feminine than when I was breastfeeding my daughter. I am not the stereotypical "girly" girl, but there is something that I love about the feeling just after I get my hair or nails done. I don't particularly care for pink, but I like to dress my girls like "girls," and most of those clothes have pink on them. I don't see a problem with teaching my kids societal norms until they say otherwise. If I chose to treat them gender neutral, then I would still be making a choice for them. I would still be dressing them how I wanted them to be dressed. I see it as my job to choose for them and lead them until they know who they are and can choose for themselves. I have had to tell my older son how men do things such as sit ect because he was copying me, and he has no constant male influence. If he decides that he wants to sit or dress like a "girl" then fine, but it is not going to be because he wasn't exposed to the "male" side of things. I definitely see a difference in the way my boys and girls act. My boys had dolls and a stroller when they were small. They eventually made the doll the bad guy and iron man beat it up. The stroller was demolished in a race with a monster truck. My 2 year old daughter put a doll on the back of a monster truck and pushed it around like a stroller. She was genuinely upset when my son crashed into her "stroller" with the ride on car. She picked the baby up and insisted that I kiss it to make it better. Yes, the "roles" overlap, but I really do see a difference.
I guess the bottom line for me is: I like having males and females and stereotypical norms. I don't want those roles to disappear. I am OK with there being other categories as well, but I am not going to go out of my way to create them.
i have seen what katydid mentioned (the more aggressive, active behavior of boys and the more docile, nurturing behavior of girls as the norm) in working in daycare. this is why i have also defended the use of water guns, because i have seen little boys make guns out of bristle blocks or legos, in the absence of toy guns. but that's a whole other matter. anyway, what i'm saying is that i do think there are typical behaviors associated with gender. how much of that can be chalked up to cues they are getting from movies, society, etc. i don't know. i mean, from the time we are born we are inundated with stereotypes.
i would like to think that i am not forcing my daughters to feel they have to be ballerinas, wear pink tutus and play princess, but the fact is, i have bought those kinds of clothes for them from day one. i have assumed that the princess movies would be the ones they want to watch. i have assumed that she would relate more to katerina than she would to daniel tiger on daniel tiger's neighborhood. it's things like that that i think we don't even pay attention to, that teach our kids they "should" be this or that.
i like what MNmommas said about not ever feeling like a girl or anything other than herself. i totally get that. i have never been a "girly" girl. i had a spiderman big wheel, because that's the one i chose. my favorite disney movies were bambi and dumbo, and the princess movies didn't appeal to me at all. it completely escapes me why anyone would want to sit in a spa for an hour or two. getting my hair cut and styled feels like a means to an end to me--to simply get my hair done--rather than a treat. gossiping with girlfriends while painting my toenails just feels weird to me. that doesn't mean i feel like a guy, either. i just don't feel like "that" girl. i feel like i feel.
anyway, i guess i'm just saying i have work to do to get over forcing norms on my daughters. i, personally, hate social norms. even if you say "i will accept my child no matter what," if you believe there should be social norms, you are telling them there is something "other" about them.
I have told all three of my kids (Shiloh and the two I have guardianship of) that I'd have no problem with them connecting with a man or woman in the future ... or even experimenting and taking time to decide based on attraction. My oldest has tested that asking what if questions about a friend of hers who prefers girls. She finds it very funny that I won't allow [boy]friends to sleep over but her gay [girl]friend is still welcome.