Defiance in kids

roses25

Is/was your 4-5 year old just plain defiant to you and others? Please don't judge I'm just trying to find out what's "normal" for this age. I've been questioning if Aiden possibly has oppositional defiance disorder.

Aiden is very defiant. For example, a few days ago we just got home and Aiden asked if he could have some chocolate milk. I said after I go to the bathroom. I told him to wait until I got back because the milk was new and hard to get open. I assured him I'd help after I used the bathroom. Well two minutes later I came out and Aiden had opened the milk all by himself (the type where you have to pull a part off underneath the cap which keeps it fresh) and spilled the chocolate milk all over himself and the floor. I made him clean up the mess and he only got water to drink then.

Then today we collected chicken eggs. Each kids had one to put away. I asked the Aiden to wait until Addy put hers away. Well once again he did the opposite and put it away right away. He knocked it on the ground. I made him clean up the mess and sent him to time out.

Timeouts don't do a darn thing. I say sit down and he stands up. I say stay inside as he goes outside. I feel like he doesn't hear a word I say. I'm going to start making him repeat back what I say to him. I asked him why he didn't follow directions in both instances because I just don't get it and he told me because he didn't want to wait. So he must have some impulsivness going on or something. His receptive and expressive language is great so it's not that.

scifimom

This post made me think of the latest Aha Parenting post. I reread the article and it may not seem to apply to your examples into well into the article. Disregard if it doesn't resonate, of course. obviously my kids not to that age yet, so no personal wisdom to share.
http://www.ahaparenting.com/_blog/Parenting_Blog/post/Obedience_Why_Do_You_Have_To_Tell_Them_Five_Times/

Kari

Extremely oppositional 4/5 year old here! I, too, questioned ODD but his pediatrician said to look at anxiety instead, which I believe is the root of the behavior. He's trying to grow up and be more independent but gets upset when I get upset at the mess his independence and impatience often incurs and then the defiance kicks in for a second round.

Anyway, I've observed several other 4/5 year olds at Justin's daycare/preschool and almost every one of them (15 of them) act, from time to time in public, the way Justin acts in private. I think it's a stage.

ETA: I also got to teach computer classes to K students this year. Normally I only teach the older grades. I saw several kids resisting my instructions and acting defiantly by doing their own thing, pretending they didn't hear me, or even just outright telling me what THEY are GOING to DO. On a positive note, it tends to be the brighter kids who challenge me while the younger or less bright students just go along with what I tell them to do without that degree of resistance. Maybe next year it will hit those students to start refusing as their development catches up.

K&H

The thing about oppositional defiant disorder is that the child must have something to oppose. If you're thinking about opposition, it's only really helpful to think about a pattern of interaction between the two of you. Think about toy trains. They have a magnet on each end. If you put the two opposing ends together, they will fight and reject each other and not work as a team. If one of them shifts a little and does things differently (turns around), they work together very well and make great team.
Ross green's Collaborative Problem Solving might be helpful for you, although he is still very young and has a long way to go til rational problem solving and logical thought.

Shanny

I think there's a really fine line at this she between "normal" and ODD at this age! Some days there is no line. We were worried about ODD with my niece but like Justin we are pretty sure now it is mostly anxiety causing the behaviors. It is her relationship with her father that causes the anxiety but since there isn't anything my sister can do to change or improve that she has D in therapy and has worked to change her parenting style.

Simply put, here is the difference I notice between "typical" and "you may want to talk to someone" - duration, perseverance, and frequency. We are at the tail end of this phase with Kate (the age appropriate, middle of the road defiance that starts at 4 and goes until 5 1/2 ish and is like nothing you've seen from your kid up up until this point). So, unless she's eaten a bag of m&m's there is a line that Kate doesn't generally cross. D has no line. For example (m&m issues notwithstanding) Kate would NEVER hit me, let alone another adult. D frequently did this (has gotten much better). There's no point where D gives in, loses her fight etc. Eventually Kate sees she can't win, she wants to move on etc. While there were days when I felt like "everything's a battle", I'd then spend a day with my sister and realize what that truly looked like. It was exhausting just to watch.

MNmommas

Just from the 2 examples you've given, it seems like he may just not be developmentally able to control his impulses - he has a hard time waiting. That is definitely typical of his age. It's frustrating & exhausting for sure, but do try to look at it from his perspective, because there is a good chance that he was not trying to upset you or actively defy you by doing those things after you told him to wait.

I have a vivid memory of my mom being embarrassed/very upset at me at my 5th birthday party. She found me hiding under the gift table with an opened gift of sweets, nibbling away (they were spice drops, which I didn't even like). I knew I wasn't supposed to open any of the gifts until it was time for that, but I just could not resist the temptation. When she found me, I felt deeply ashamed but of course I didn't want to be vulnerable and let her to see that, so when she scolded me or disciplined me, I am certain that my reaction seemed defiant to her.

My point is, although it's tough to deal with as a parent, it doesn't sound atypical from the examples you listed. Of course, if you feel there's more to it, that the frequency or severity of his control/impulsive/defiant behaviors are concerning, don't hesitate to ask a professional. You can always ask A's pediatrician for a reference to a behavioral therapist. They should be able to either lay your concerns to rest or help you/A develop the tools you need for his success, so it's a win-win for both of you. Best wishes!

babymakes3

Both of my boys were ODD at four. The oldest outgrew it by five but I have a 4 year old right now, so I feel your pain and frustration. Just this morning we were telling him not to play at the breakfast table and well he didn't it anyway and fell off the pub chair and hit his head. Did he learn a lesson? Probably not. he is a tester for sure. The key is to be consistent in your punishment. We usually take away his favorite cars and then he earns back 1 at a time by listening and being cooperative. Good luck and yes your son is normal.

Shanny

So here was a perfect example. When I was typing my response last night I was laying by the pool. K came out and asked if she could go swimming. I said no that it was almost bedtime. She kept asking, started crying "but mommy..." I told her not to ask again. She started screaming "stop it" about 3-4 times. I told her not to scream at me and she could now go inside and get ready for bed. She stormed off and I wasn't sure what I'd find when I came in. She was laying in bed waiting for me. She'd brushed her teeth, picked her stories and gone to the bathroom. We talked about why she was upset, that I was sorry she couldn't swim but the way she spoke to me was unacceptable and if she did that again she would have a privilege taken away. We read stories and she went to sleep. If that were my niece NO WAY that would have been the end of it. My sister would have come into the house to find her doing something she shouldn't be doing and she would almost certainly still be screaming wether someone was listening/responding or not. It's just a whole different ball game when they do not have a stopping point.

Sunshine4Baby

I am honestly hoping it's the age b/c my son is going thru this BiG time - he will be 5 at the end of July. I feel like it is a constant issue just dealing with teaching him patience and that he can't get Everything that he wants. I also deal with out of control fits from him - but if I leave him alone he will stop on his own & come out to apologize for his behavior, it's almost like he is impulsive but later realizes it was wrong and feels bad. Hearing others Are Dealing with it at this age makes me feel much better

EMG_REL

I was hoping that there was an end in sight with this kind of behavior, but it seems we're just getting started at three years old! This is all helpful to know that he's normal, though!

coryandamanda

I think I remember you saying your son had sensory issues as well in the past?? Impulse control is a big part of that as well. It has been a challenge with our sensory girl.

Kari

Adding onto what Cory and Amanda said, Justin also has sensory issues. I read a great article about how kids with SPD have transitional anxiety. They don't switch gears very well because they lack the executive functioning pieces that allow them to wind down one activity to switch to another. Anyway, I know that doesn't tie in with the chocolate milk story, but it is something that can affect behavior, frustration level, and anxiety. With Justin I have to give him instructions in the same order each morning to get us out of the house, and the same order for getting ready for bed. No deviations or he has a meltdown. I also give him warnings that we're going to stop an activity and, since time is arbitrary to him, I tie it in with something else that's going to happen first. For example, tonight I said we'd brush teeth after a tv show ended; or we'll read a story after we finish the puzzle and pick up the pieces. The more routine things are, the fewer outbursts.